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Cameron caves in


Algerian peter

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Conservatives to publish draft bill on an EU referendum tomorrow.

Is it to much pressure from back benches, the threat from UKIP or the old stalwarts of Maggies government expressing the opinion of getting out of Europe.

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carver

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fourm member look I may have it wrong but in that speech he merely says that.

"The next Conservative Manifesto in 2015 will ask for a mandate from the British people for a Conservative Government to negotiate a new settlement with our European partners in the next Parliament."

And then says,

"And when we have negotiated that new settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in or out choice. To stay in the EU on these new terms; or come out altogether."

I can't see anything were he makes any promise about doing any thing before the next election, but now he can, just seems strange.

But now it just seems a knee jerk reaction to a big majority of people voting UKIP.

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fourm member

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carver

It's a long speech so I'm not surprised you missed it. It comes in the 16th 'graph of the section headed 'Real Choices' about 3/4 of the way through the speech.

'a big majority of people voting UKIP.'

When did 24% (in areas where UKIP thought it had most support) become a majority?

As I said, whenever the draft legislation was published people would have been able to criticise the timing.

On the face of it, this has been done at a time that emphasises the limits placed on Cameron by being in a coalition.

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john bunyan

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We had a referendum and are in. We cant keep changing our minds, and I agree with those that prefer the Parliamentary democracy view. If there were referenda on Gay Marriage and Capital Punishment, for example I suspect the results would be very awkward. We should seek changes from within and stop this obsession with withdrawal from the EU, which is damaging our standing in the world - the back benchers and a few ministers who keep on about it are behaving like "little Englanders" and are in a blind panic over the UKIP result.

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carver

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"When did 24% (in areas where UKIP thought it had most support) become a majority?"

'a big majority of people voting UKIP.' it's when more people vote UKIP than conservative or Labour or Liberal in a given area.

And they did it in a LOT of areas.

Or didn't you understand that majority means they get more votes than the others so gained that particular seat.

But there was an area of concern about that particular sentence and that was the Liberals told him that they didn't want it and that is why he wants a back bencher to bring it as a private bill.

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wiz-king

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Prevarication. I think the PM should stick by his original statement and negotiate first if he gets re-elected and then ask the country to give an opinion, and then tell them its a referendum and not a vote.

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Jock1e

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fourm member

[ just reveals how poor Miliband is.]

I have to agree with you on that statement.

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hssutton

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"We had a referendum and are in. We cant keep changing our minds"

Oh! come on John, I doubt anyone voted for what we have got now. Of course one or two people who had crystal balls in 1975 will say different.

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mole1944

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We voted in 1975 for the EEC, a trading group not a union of member states , i still have the paperwork in the loft to prove what we were told we were voting for. I Think if we pull out France and Germany will miss our contributions and will have to put more money in themselves to the sinking ship, and we can't have that can we.

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Forum Editor

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"Oh! come on John, I doubt anyone voted for what we have got now."

How could they? We voted on the question we were asked, which was Do you want the UK to remain in the EEC?

That's what happens with a referendum, the voters are asked a question, and they vote on it. It's no good saying, 37 years later, 'well if they had known what we know now the result would have been different'. People voted in the context of the time, and that's as it should be.

If we vote to withdraw from the EU, and in a couple of decades time we see that our economic situation has got worse, and unemployment is at an all time high, we can't start saying (about the proposed referendum) "I doubt anyone voted for what we have got now."

We should not be having a referendum on this issue, it's wrong to hold one, but it looks likely that we shall do just that. We'll vote, based on what we're told by both sides in the argument, and on what our gut feeling is. The result will be what it is, and off we go again....sheer lunacy in my opinion, but there it is.

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fourm member

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carver

I'm not going to split hairs with you. I agree UKIP got more votes than other candidates in a number of seats but I'm not going to bother to see how many of those gave them the majority of votes i.e. more than the other candidates combined.

What your statement does is to overstate the importance of UKIP. You are far from alone in that. Lots of people are over-stating UKIP's significance as they did when the BNP was having its five minutes in the sun and, for that matter, when the SDP was supposed to rewrite the political map.

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