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Personally I wish he would learn not to have ideas


carver
Resolved

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Sorry but this is really brilliant enter link description here or not idea from this person, he just seems to let his mouth say any thing that comes into his thought pattern with out thinking it through.

So you have longer days and shorter holidays, who will pay for it, teachers will not do it with out more pay, TA's who schools are now dependant on to operate properly will not work extra hours unless they get paid the extra money.

More money will have to be found to open schools for longer hours, heating/ maintenance people to be paid.

It might be an idea to start at basics and put him back in a class room with over 30 children and try and get him to teach them. We have one of the biggest average class sizes in the EU and the situation is getting worse every year.

Or he could practice what he preaches and try and get the summer recess for MP's shortened and make them work longer hours.

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Forum Editor

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carver

"don't you realise why teachers do PPA time, it's because the class size has actually got larger in the poorer areas"

Do you have a source for that information?

I have a showing Pupil:teacher ratios for schools in England between 1978 and 2010. In 1978 the figures were 20.7 in nursery schools, 23.6 in Primary schools, 16.9 in Secondary schools, 8.1 in Special schools, and 12.9 in Independent schools.

The comparative figures for 2010 were 16.2 for Nursery schools, 21.3 in Primary schools, 15.7 for Secondary schools, 6.1 in Special schools, and 8.3 in Independent schools.

Lower figures in all cases, and the figure is for fully qualified teachers.

There is a statutory maximum of class size for children aged five,six and seven, for classes taught be one teacher - of 30 pupils.

In 2007 (The latest official figures I could find in a quick search) the average class size in Secondary schools for classes taught by one teacher was 21.2 - exactly the same as in 1978.

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carver

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F.E a link to a BBC article enter link description here and another link to school census and class sizes http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/m/sfr10-2012.pdf

"There is a statutory maximum of class size for children aged five,six and seven, for classes taught be one teacher - of 30 pupils."

Sorry F.E but that can be increased to 34 children per class size when certain conditions are met, such as children coming into the area and no places at other schools, twins being allowed into same class, appeals succeeding against school because another sibling already being at that school.

At this moment in time my wife's school has a ratio of 33 per class size in first 3 year groups and there is 3 classes per year group and it's not getting better any time soon.

Teachers just can not cope, all they can do is teach the children enough to pass a test to keep the figures at the levels the government want.

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Forum Editor

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"Sorry F.E but that can be increased to 34 children per class size when certain conditions are met, such as children coming into the area and no places at other schools, twins being allowed into same class, appeals succeeding against school because another sibling already being at that school."

I wonder how common such circumstances are? A Department for Education spokesperson recently said, in response by a bid by Sutton Council to change the law on class sizes "The law remains clear that it is illegal for infant classes to exceed 30 pupils"

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oresome

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carver,

You highlight a number of issues, but:

You don't want the Education Secretary to come with new ideas.

You don't think teachers and support staff will work longer for the same pay.

You don't want targets to be set.

Given that the country is living on borrowed money and predicting future schooling requirements is extemely difficult, achieving a 97% success in maximum class size is reasonable if not ideal I'd have thought.

I'll be first to acknowledge that a teachers lot is not an easy one. In that respect it's no different to many other occupations.

What are your suggestions to improve the education system within the confines of a stagnant economy?

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carver

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oresome I have no idea but I do know this Gove had some very good advisers and he just ignored them, people who knew what they were talking about, when he first talked about changing the curriculum even they signed the letter saying it wasn't a good idea

Why not put some of those in charge or at least some one who does know how education is run, not some body who every time he opens his mouth insults teachers, that is not the way to get people to work with you.

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carver

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F.E enter link description here

enter link description here

enter link description here

These are just news paper reports but I have to go out, I need to talk to some one about an e-mail I have received from some one about class sizes and whether or not I can copy any of it onto here.

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fourm member

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carver

I'm confused.

Yesterday you posted 'Average class size state school for primary children 32.' (scroll down for 3:11pm)

Today you post a link to a report that says *'The average size of key stage 1 classes taught by one teacher on the census day in January 2012 was 27.2, compared to 26.9 in January 2011.'*

How do you explain the difference?

I'm asking because you seem to condemn the government for manipulating figures so that is clearly not something you would do. I'm interested, therefore, in how you came to make the error and what that tells us about how difficult it is to get at reliable numbers.

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fourm member

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FE

The link Carver posted says that the most common reason for a class exceeding 30 is that the independent appeal panel has overturned a decision not to allow a child to attend a particular school. 44.9% of all cases in fact.

Who'd be a politician? You have a process to give parents more say in their child's education and have an independent body deciding on fairness but then get kicked in the teeth for over large classes.

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carver

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fourm member "I'm confused" I know you are so I will try to explain it for you, the government did a census in 2012, they took all the primary school places and all the children that attended primary school.

They then divided the number of places by the number of children and got an average, this was published.

One problem with this was that there is are unfilled placing's for some were in the region of 440.000 children nationally but these places are were parents can not or do not want to send their children, some times there is not even public transport to these places, 20 minutes by car or public transport every 3 hours.

But if you are a parent you can not send two children to different primary schools so you send them to the same one even if the class size is already 30, therefore the class size has already increased to 31 sometimes 32/33 or even 34 children and it's legal.

fourm member what you have to realise is that when you have children they become very important and you want the best for them and maybe sending them to a crap primary school may not be some thing you want, or splitting your children between primary schools may not be a good idea.

So who gave these parents the option to do this, how about the government who was in power at the time the law was changed and who brought in league tables to show the better schools so parents had the choice to not send their child to a crap school, let me think.

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fourm member

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carver

You've done nothing to assuage my confusion. You went from stating that the average class was 32 to linking to a report saying it was 27.2.

Where did you get the 32?

I wasn't saying the process of allowing appeals over school allocation is wrong. I was saying that it is devious to bleat about class sizes without going into the reasons why a class may exceed the legal limit.

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