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EU In/Out? Is a referendum the best way?


spider9
Resolved

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I'd always thought we were a Parliamentary Democracy, and, as such, we elect paid representatives to take difficult decisions on our behalf.

Membership of Europe is a difficult , complicated topic, and most people (including myself) would be hard pushed to appreciate all the pros and cons - so the populace will now be bombarded by media propaganda aimed at the lowest common denominator, I suspect.

Loads of 'crazy' EU stories will emerge and be fed to the Great British public, with 'good' EU stories being more difficult to show. Hence the media barons will, once again, get their way and politicians can then 'blame' us if it turns out bad.

Weak leadership I'm afraid.

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Legolas

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I was nineteen in 1974 and to be honest can't remember if I voted or not to stay in the EEC but it seemed to me that a community of countries that had free trade between them could only be a good thing, there was no hint at that time or certainly not to me of the EEC becoming the EU with a parliament in Brussels and having power over the parliaments of constituent countries, in fact before it was the EEC I seem to remember it being the Common Market, free trade a good thing, a Common Market a good thing, a parliament in Brussels meddling in out affairs not for me. Having said all that I would be wary about leaving the EU but as Cameron has said (never thought I would agree with a Tory) we should try and renegotiate our membership and maybe have a look at what we mean by a European Union.

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Flak999

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With regard to the comments and quotes from Hansard, I'm sure Ted Heath knew exactly what he was doing when speaking about european unity, politicians are quite adept at meaning one thing, saying another and doing something totally different! That's why in most peoples opinions they rank on an equivalent level to war criminals or sex offenders. (I speak tongue in cheek, but you get what I mean I'm sure?)

When we were taken into the common market and had the referendum I was sixteen, I couldn't vote. I could not have cared less about politics I was more interested in girls and having a good time. Now that I am fifty five (this year) I care very much about politics and how decisions made a generation ago affect my life and the lives of my children. No doubt as some may already have guessed I am a patriot and am very much of the opinion that "it's my country right or wrong."

I don't agree with many of the policies emanating from europe, particularly with regard to unrestricted immigration, which coupled with the Common agricultural policy, the gravy train of european commissioners, the black hole in the accounts of the union which cannot be signed off by accountants, the endemic corruption, the euro and just about everything else that the union stands for, not to mention the european court of human rights (I know, it's totally seperate from the union)

So all in all I don't much care if Cameron negotiates some powers back from Brussels.

I want out!

I am sure that the German chancellor sits in the Chancellery in Berlin pondering how one of her predecessors so nearly achieved by force of arms what she is set to achieve by economic and political means and realises that the dream of the thirties, of German hegemony over Europe and the thousand year Reich is actually within her grasp!

One people, one empire, one leader!

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Forum Editor

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Flak999

Look at two countires - Germany and Britain. Consider where they both were in 1945, and consider where they both are now, in economic terms.

Germany has the largest economy in Europe, and the fourth largest in the world. Britain has the third largest in Europe, and the sixth largest in the world.

By anyone's standards the German economic recovery since 1945 has been nothing short of astonishing, and it hasn't happened by luck. The German Chancellor doesn't need to dream of dominance - in an economic sense she already has it, and it happened because instead of sitting around wondering how little work they could do for the maximum amount of money the German people rolled up their sleeves and got on with it.

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Quickbeam

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What Flak999's post does demonstrate well, it what I said about the new generation of dissatisfied adults, post '75 referendum, needing to have an input as to where we go in this new century with the EU.

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Flak999

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Forum Editor

Look at two countires - Germany and Britain. Consider where they both were in 1945, and consider where they both are now, in economic terms.

I agree, we were the victors in 1945 but the war bankrupted us, whilst the Germans although nominally the losers benefited hugely from the Marshall plan and european reconstruction from the US. That is what contributed hugely to the German economic miracle. Along with, I will agree the German work ethic.

In many ways I admire the Germans, their single minded approach to whatever they turn their hands to, be it building Volkswagen cars or world domination they devote themselves to it heart and soul.

I just don't want to be part of the fourth Reich that's all!

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Flak999

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fourm member

Another example of blaming the EU for something it didn't do.

But it did didn't it? One of the main concepts of the EU is the free movement of peoples to live and work within it's borders without let or hindrance. The fact that a state can take advantage of transitional arrangements to limit the surge of incomers on a temporary basis isn't much use at all.

In January next year we can no doubt expect another inflow from Romania and Bulgaria where the per capita income is 1/5 that of the UK. I don't object to people coming here to live and work if they are going to be a net contributor to the country and have the skills we need, what I do object to vehemently is the benefit tourism which sees unskilled unemployable citizens of other countries coming here to take advantage of our benefit system!

Being once again in control of our own borders, on it's own is a good enough reason for me to want to bid the failed experiment of the EU Adieu!

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morddwyd

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"I just don't want to be part of the fourth Reich that's all!"

I refer you to my January 23rd,8.39pm post.

You are too late.

"what I do object to vehemently is the benefit tourism which sees unskilled unemployable citizens of other countries coming here to take advantage of our benefit system!"

But that is not the fault of the EU, but entirely down to successive British governments, with their policy of handouts for all, regardless of merit or need.

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spuds

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Like others, I am not sure how I voted, if at all for the Common Market. But I do recall thinking that the overseas countries that had supported the UK through thick and thin, might not receive their just rewards in the foreseeable future.

Then hearing of corruption and accounts not being signed off, made me more convinced that we in the UK, were and are being given short measure.

When it was decided 'that it was quite right' that livestock could be transported between an whole range of countries, gaining a subsidy at each border, then those same livestock being transported back to the country of origin, so it became a case of the livestock involved was worth more in subsidies than in carcass value, something was becoming seriously wrong. The other point was the welfare issues of transportation, which was a big issue, and perhaps still so today. The same can perhaps be applied to fish quotas, when quite usable fish is thrown overboard, because the quota system was never favour of providing a secure and sure solution.

The negatives and positives have been far apart at times, and its only with age, that this is coming more evident. If a referendum does come into being, then I would still be very highly sceptical as to the wording for any vote, because from past experiences, what is supposedly intended or faithfully promised is not always the case?.

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john bunyan

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Livestock are , in my view, still mistreated in the UK. Kosher and Halal slaughter should be banned in this country. Please reply only if you have witnessed slaughter of this type. I think live transport across borders for slaughter purposes should also be banned. If you want a bit of EU harmonisation, how about banning bull fighting throughout the EU? All the more reasons for a "USA" type EU where member states have different laws within reason, but no trade barriers.

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Flak999

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morddwyd

You are too late.

Unlike you I am not prepared to give up, I don't think it's to late. We have moved a long way towards the giving up of our national autonomy, but I believe we still have a chance to redress the balance.

I believe we owe it to all of those who have gone before us, those who have given their lives in defence of our freedom, to not let our country and our way of life be subsumed into a homogenised emasculated european super state dictated to by unelected officials who dance to the tune of the latest incumbent of the Reichstag!

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