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EU In/Out? Is a referendum the best way?


spider9
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I'd always thought we were a Parliamentary Democracy, and, as such, we elect paid representatives to take difficult decisions on our behalf.

Membership of Europe is a difficult , complicated topic, and most people (including myself) would be hard pushed to appreciate all the pros and cons - so the populace will now be bombarded by media propaganda aimed at the lowest common denominator, I suspect.

Loads of 'crazy' EU stories will emerge and be fed to the Great British public, with 'good' EU stories being more difficult to show. Hence the media barons will, once again, get their way and politicians can then 'blame' us if it turns out bad.

Weak leadership I'm afraid.

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hssutton

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It's been suggested on this forum that those who voted thinking they where voting for a common market are/where fools.

Now we're being referred to as brick walls. Is it possible that the reverse is true?

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Forum Editor

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hssutton

"It's been suggested on this forum that those who voted thinking they where voting for a common market are/where fools."

I hope that remark doesn't refer to anything I've written, because I have not said any such thing. Those who voted in the 1975 referendum could only vote on the question they were asked, which was "Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?"

There was a resounding 'yes' vote, which was supported by both Labour and Conservatives alike. At that time the words 'Common market' were routinely used to refer to what was in reality the European Economic Community, which was why the words 'Common Market) appeared in brackets in the referendum question.

Once the result was known the Labour Party and British trade unions joined European institutions, such as the Socialist Group in the European Parliament. They knew, as did millions of people that there was more than a trading alliance involved. You would indeed have to have been a fool at the time, not to realise that; it was constantly referred to in the media. The idea that the British public were somehow duped by both the labour and Conservative governments (both of which officially supported staying in, is a myth.

As for your comment that "Now we're being referred to as brick walls."

Where do you get that idea from? I can see a reference to one person being referred to in that light, but that's all. I think you're just looking for a chance to take a pot-shot at someone. That's your affair, but please don't try it on with me.

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Quickbeam

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Well I was 19 at the time, so foolishness was the norm!

But the fact remains that 40 years on we are all wiser fools (or should be). Had we foreseen the future ( such a wonderful thing fore sight is) as it is, I don't think that many (the forum paragon fm excepted) would have considered it to be what we wanted.

And after 40 years of general discontent, it's certainly fair to give the same choice to the current generation that will be working well into the 21st century and have to live with their choice rather than ours made 40 years ago.

The 1975 vote was a decision for the 21st century made by the mere transient generation of the day, But is it still the best option for now?

We need to either ratify or deny it again with the current generation. Even if anyone that was eligible to vote in 1975 is excluded on account of being an obvious imbecile!

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Woolwell

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FE - you stated "Nobody but a fool would have doubted then that the ultimate progression would be from a trading alliance to a political one".

I and, from his comments, hssutton are then fools because at the time, I had not understood, nor properly informed, that we were remaining in a political alliance.

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Quickbeam

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Fools of the world unite...

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fourm member

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Quickbeam

'I don't think that many (the forum paragon fm excepted) would have considered it to be what we wanted'

Now, there's the thing, isn't it? Very few of us, unless we happen to be very good at kicking a football, would say that we have what we want.

We're discontented about all manner of things and, naturally, we try and find someone to blame for that discontent. It's easy to choose the EU especially when the media do such a good job of misrepresenting its actions.

If the Tories get an overall majority in 2015 and if the EU agrees to substantial changes to our relationship with it we'll have a referendum.

During the run-up to that referendum I'm sure enough people will realise that leaving the EU won't suddenly solve all their problems.

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Quickbeam

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I certainly believe that at least the debate is necessary for the long term credibility of the EU.

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fourm member

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Quickbeam

That we can agree on.

Where we differ is that I look forward to a 'Yes' vote putting an end to the squabbling for a long time to come.

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spider9

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Quickbeam

"Well I was 19 at the time, so foolishness was the norm!"

You may well have been, but the general voting population was as old (and wise?) as they are/will be when the next referendum is called - so it seems a bit daft to clain we endorsed our membership in 1975 under false circumstances because you didn't really understand.

Having said that, it was earlier in this thread that I had to point out to you your total misunderstanding of the Salmond/Cameron positions re. the Scottish referendum and EU possible one - which might just cast some doubt on your present ability to understand all the implications, and hence my original thread question about whether it is wise to leave such a momentous vote to us plebs!!

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namtas

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morddwyd

And does anybody really believe that the import duty which would be levied on Mercedes cars would make them more available in the UK?

All this is scare tactics, in reality no one can believes that any EU manufacturer would allow that to happen, to remain static and watch sales worth millions disappear because of a tariff imposed for no good reason, I don't think so. In fact they would probably look to relocate first.

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