fourm member

As for advancing arguments for the EU. To what purpose? As I've said, any referendum will be determined by the undecideds who are receptive to discussion.

You also have a curious way of advancing your argument! I would have thought that as a staunch supporter of the union you would be able to list many benefits of our membership, and in doing so persuade all of the doubters as to the error of their thinking!

Are you saying that those of us with polarised opinions (you for, me against) cannot be persuaded by logical argument of the rightness of the others cause? As for the undecideds who are "receptive to discussion" how would you seek to persuade them?

Flak999

I think you'll find your 2:01 post answers your 1:58 post.

It is not for me to persuade people; others can do that much better. As I said, the 1975 pamphlet makes many of the relevant points.

It's a fiction to think we could exist in the modern world without alliances. It is a fiction to believe that we would not be affected by events inside the EU if we were out. The only difference would be that we could not have any input into the discussions.

It is, also, a fiction to believe that the UK parliament would enact a raft of xenophobic policies as soon as we left the EU.

On that last point, I'd love to see the Venn diagram showing people who think we should leave the EU so that the UK parliament makes all the decisions and people who think the UK parliament is made up of greedy, lazy, self-serving MPs who only have their own interests at heart.

fourm member

It is not for me to persuade people

Perhaps that's because you can't? As for the 1975 pamphlet I commend the "WILL PARLIAMENT LOSE ITS POWER? section to your attention. Perhaps you will tell me how much of that is true today? Particulary this paragraph:

Remember: All the other countries in the Market today enjoy, like us, democratically elected Governments answerable to their own Parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would."

Flak999

'Perhaps that's because you can't?'

I am not a miracle worker. That's why I recognise that nothing I say will convince someone whose views are deeply entrenched and based on an unwillingness to examine evidence rather than rely on prejudice.

Just how do you think there can be 'mutually beneficial trading arrangements' if the UK is outside the EU?

Do you really think the French Prime Minister will say 'We have decided to buy X from the UK because that means there will be fewer jobs for EU workers?'

It is a valid argument to say you want out of the EU regardless of the consequences.

It is a valid, though highly speculative, argument to say that we can reposition our trading arrangements so as not to suffer from leaving the EU.

What is not valid is to suggest that we could walk away from the EU and still operate on exactly the same basis economically.