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EU In/Out? Is a referendum the best way?


spider9
Resolved

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I'd always thought we were a Parliamentary Democracy, and, as such, we elect paid representatives to take difficult decisions on our behalf.

Membership of Europe is a difficult , complicated topic, and most people (including myself) would be hard pushed to appreciate all the pros and cons - so the populace will now be bombarded by media propaganda aimed at the lowest common denominator, I suspect.

Loads of 'crazy' EU stories will emerge and be fed to the Great British public, with 'good' EU stories being more difficult to show. Hence the media barons will, once again, get their way and politicians can then 'blame' us if it turns out bad.

Weak leadership I'm afraid.

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morddwyd

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But can't you see, or accept, it's done? Britain has little influence in Europe, either inside or outside the EU.

For the record I want out. I am all for an integrated Europe, but not in its present form. But make no mistake, if we come out the present economic difficulties will seem like boom time.

I am not sure of your own position. You also want out, but want seem to want to see the end of the EU as well.

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Quickbeam

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"Britain has little influence in Europe, either inside or outside the EU."

Which is why my first post supporting out said, "The simple reasoning being that we can't be any worse off on our own..."

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flycatcher1

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morddwyd Your point about Britain having little influence in, or out, of the EU.

Is that why they seem to be very keen on us staying in ? Maybe it is the money or is it that we seem to be the only Nation that is prepared to fight for others.

Look at Mali - the French are there because it was French and, I suppose, they maintain excessive interest there, we are there because the French asked us for help and like good Europeans we provided it.

The Germans, Italians, Spanish,the Nordic countries and all the others are nowhere to be seen. If it is necessary to support the Government in Mali why are only two European countries involved ?

I would prefer us to stay in the EU but if it is going to be a Federal State with all that implies I want out.

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fourm member

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flycatcher1

'why are only two European countries involved'

Because this isn't an EU matter. It is one country, France, asking another country, UK, to fill in the gaps in its capabilities.

There's a deafening silence from all those who banged on about how defence cuts would leave us incapable of doing anything at the realisation that we are the go to country when someone else hasn't got the resources.

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Flak999

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morddwyd

For the record I want out.

And glad I am to hear it! My position to make it completely clear is for a total withdrawal of the UK from the EU, a total and complete repatriation of all powers from Brussels to London. At the same time a withdrawal from the European convention on human rights, so that we are not bound by any more of that courts ridiculous decisions.

I am totally ambivalent as to whether the EU continues without us, that is for the remaining members to decide. All of this is pie in the sky I can hear you say, but the referendum when it comes is the first step. When the groundswell of public opinion is known and the decision to leave is made, all else will flow from that.

There is plenty of time in the intervening years for the crisis within the EU to deepen, at the moment the union is only being held together by smoke and mirrors. Greece should already have gone, who next Spain, Portugal? Or perhaps Italy or Ireland?

When the restrictions on Romania and Bulgaria are removed in 2014 and the next destitute hoard of benefit tourists descend on our shores, taking scarce resources that we can ill afford to give the outcry against the EU will only grow louder.

We can afford to play the waiting game because by waiting the crisis will only deepen ensuring a resounding vote to leave the union!

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Flak999

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Interesting piece here from the Daily Telegraph another reason, if one were needed why we need to regain control of our borders!

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Forum Editor

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Flak999

"When the groundswell of public opinion is known and the decision to leave is made, all else will flow from that."

And what if the "groundswell of public opinion" is that we should remain a member state of the EU - what then for Britain?

What makes you so sure that the people of this country will be so blinded by the frenzy of the euro-haters that will be whipped up by certain sections of the media, that they'll vote for an isolationist UK?

It would be a step into the economic abyss, one that would see us estranged from our long-time American allies - who desperately want us in Europe. Countries like Australia, Canada, India and New Zealand have been busy establishing themselves as independent trading nations, and we will not be able to look to them for trading favours when we are all alone in the world, a world that is a very different place to the one that we enjoyed when we were a major manufacturing nation.

You're living in the past, Flak999, and that attitude is not going to butter any parsnips in the reality of the 21st century. Our future is bound up with Europe,like it or not, and the sooner we realise that we'll achieve far more in a united Europe than we ever will outside it the better.

The EU has problems, some of them are big problems, but they'll be resolved in time. Jumping ship because you don't like some of the rules is an immature reaction to what was an inevitable situation. Europe was always going to encounter these problems, it is a massive undertaking, this coming together of a variety of countries with their long and complex histories. Making it work is a job for visionaries and grafters alike; it's not for those who can't get past their nationalistic attitudes.

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john bunyan

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FE

Thank you for a very good summary of the thoughts of many of us.

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spider9

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Flak999 "but the referendum when it comes is the first step."

Maybe you should say if? It is depending on so many things (mainly if the Tory election win happens, of course).

FE

Thank goodness for the reality check you have provided - I certainly wouldn't want to live and be governed by such xenophobic leaders as would arise after an 'Out' decision.

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Woolwell

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FE stated "The EU has problems, some of them are big problems, but they'll be resolved in time." I wish I had that confidence as it currently doesn't seem likely. They have to sort out their budget and stop moving Parliament from Strasbourg to Brussels and back and many other things including CAP and double payments. The economies of Greece and Spain, etc need resolving.

The European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights need reining in too.

It has been mentioned but back in the 70's we were misled/misinformed into thinking that we were joining a Common Market not a political federation. I was unable to vote in 1975 as I was out of the UK. But the attitude was "it's too late we are already in".

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