Quickbeam

'That all depends which side of the fence you want to fall to.'

Quite right. morddwyd's characterisation of Salmond and Cameron is viewed from one position.

Just as easy to say that Cameron was able to form a stable coalition because the LibDems realised how important it was to move forward. And Salmond had to run a minority because no-one would work with him.

That's why I said it is the undecideds that matter.

Just grabbing one poll for each; 'if a referendum was held now 40% would vote in favour of leaving the EU, with 37% wanting to stay and 23% undecided' for the EU vote and, in Scotland, 28% of voters currently back independence,support for the union stands at 48% and 24% are undecided.

So, although the number of undecideds is very similar the big difference is that 61% of undecideds have to choose to stay in the EU for Cameron to win but 96% of undecideds have to side with Salmond.

Of course, the other thing 'undecideds' are undecided about is whether to vote at all. Bulgaria held a referendum, yesterday. The law there says a 60% turnout must be achieved for the referendum to count. Turnout seems to have been about 21%.

Quickbeam. Perhaps there are two of them after all. (God forbid).

Flak999

"I am not prepared to give up, I don't think it's to late."

You are, of course, entitled to your view, but if you think that you, and/or Cameron, and/or any combination of British people have any chance of changing a strong Europe, led by a Franco-German alliance dominated by Germany, with the UK out on the periphery, which is the current reality, then your view is through particularly rose tinted spectacles, especially if you think such a change can be made by opting out and letting them get on with it!

As for your comments on the Fourth Reich, your xenophobia has given you a different view of recent history to me.

There was never any intention of the UK being part of Hitler's Greater Europe, or even fighting a protracted war. He fully expected Britain to sue for peace, and those expectations would have been fully realised had the 1930s appeasers not been replaced by Churchill.

It was only after Churchill's "Fight them on the beaches" speech that he realised that he would, expectedly, have to eliminate the British.

That has now been achieved, so far as Europe is concerned. Cameron's referendum, no matter which way it goes, will simply put the finishing touches.

Once again, for the record, I was once a full federalist, hoping to see "Ode to Joy" played at an Olympics medal ceremony.

However, having an open mind I changed it when presented with the evidence.

...That's The Way, Tangerine or Misty Mountain Hop would do.