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EU In/Out? Is a referendum the best way?


spider9
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I'd always thought we were a Parliamentary Democracy, and, as such, we elect paid representatives to take difficult decisions on our behalf.

Membership of Europe is a difficult , complicated topic, and most people (including myself) would be hard pushed to appreciate all the pros and cons - so the populace will now be bombarded by media propaganda aimed at the lowest common denominator, I suspect.

Loads of 'crazy' EU stories will emerge and be fed to the Great British public, with 'good' EU stories being more difficult to show. Hence the media barons will, once again, get their way and politicians can then 'blame' us if it turns out bad.

Weak leadership I'm afraid.

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Quickbeam

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HB has every right to feel quite offended at the sugestion of being a 9B...

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john bunyan

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Bing.alau

Thank you. I originally "coined the monicker" in a rush, as I thought of being a pilgrim, wandering aimlessly through later life. I shall follow others and change, probably to New JB

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fourm member

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Quickbeam

'That all depends which side of the fence you want to fall to.'

Quite right. morddwyd's characterisation of Salmond and Cameron is viewed from one position.

Just as easy to say that Cameron was able to form a stable coalition because the LibDems realised how important it was to move forward. And Salmond had to run a minority because no-one would work with him.

That's why I said it is the undecideds that matter.

Just grabbing one poll for each; 'if a referendum was held now 40% would vote in favour of leaving the EU, with 37% wanting to stay and 23% undecided' for the EU vote and, in Scotland, 28% of voters currently back independence,support for the union stands at 48% and 24% are undecided.

So, although the number of undecideds is very similar the big difference is that 61% of undecideds have to choose to stay in the EU for Cameron to win but 96% of undecideds have to side with Salmond.

Of course, the other thing 'undecideds' are undecided about is whether to vote at all. Bulgaria held a referendum, yesterday. The law there says a 60% turnout must be achieved for the referendum to count. Turnout seems to have been about 21%.

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Quickbeam

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Well, I suppose that we can at least all agree that the next few years will be quite interesting regarding our feelings towards the EU as the battle for the undecideds takes to the field.

Didn't you like being New FM after all?

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Bing.alau

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Quickbeam. Perhaps there are two of them after all. (God forbid).

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Quickbeam

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Not to be confused with God.forbid

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morddwyd

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Flak999

"I am not prepared to give up, I don't think it's to late."

You are, of course, entitled to your view, but if you think that you, and/or Cameron, and/or any combination of British people have any chance of changing a strong Europe, led by a Franco-German alliance dominated by Germany, with the UK out on the periphery, which is the current reality, then your view is through particularly rose tinted spectacles, especially if you think such a change can be made by opting out and letting them get on with it!

As for your comments on the Fourth Reich, your xenophobia has given you a different view of recent history to me.

There was never any intention of the UK being part of Hitler's Greater Europe, or even fighting a protracted war. He fully expected Britain to sue for peace, and those expectations would have been fully realised had the 1930s appeasers not been replaced by Churchill.

It was only after Churchill's "Fight them on the beaches" speech that he realised that he would, expectedly, have to eliminate the British.

That has now been achieved, so far as Europe is concerned. Cameron's referendum, no matter which way it goes, will simply put the finishing touches.

Once again, for the record, I was once a full federalist, hoping to see "Ode to Joy" played at an Olympics medal ceremony.

However, having an open mind I changed it when presented with the evidence.

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Aitchbee

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I still finish of my day, when I'm tucked up in bed, by listening to the 'National Anthem' on BBC Radio4 ... at 1am ... just before the World Service 'kicks in' ... but a bit of / or burst of LED Zeppelin would make it even better!

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Aitchbee

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...That's The Way, Tangerine or Misty Mountain Hop would do.

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Flak999

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morddwyd

Strangely, I'm not really to sure which side of the argument you are supporting! I'm not interested in changing Europe for the better or for the worse. As I said in an earlier post, I want out! Altogether, I don't want unelected European technocrats interfering in the sovereign Government of the UK.

I don't want their immigrants! I don't want their common agricultural policy, nor their commissioners or their courts. I want the Government that I elect to be able to make our own laws without some European veto, I don't want their Euro or to pay to support the basket case members who should never have been allowed to join in the first place!

Your interpretation of the appeasement of the 1930's is different to mine, Hitler knew he would have to defeat us in these islands or lose the war! He didn't and he lost. I am damned if I will let another German chancellor do what her predecessor failed to do, but by political means!

If that's xenophobia, so be it!

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