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EU In/Out? Is a referendum the best way?


spider9
Resolved

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I'd always thought we were a Parliamentary Democracy, and, as such, we elect paid representatives to take difficult decisions on our behalf.

Membership of Europe is a difficult , complicated topic, and most people (including myself) would be hard pushed to appreciate all the pros and cons - so the populace will now be bombarded by media propaganda aimed at the lowest common denominator, I suspect.

Loads of 'crazy' EU stories will emerge and be fed to the Great British public, with 'good' EU stories being more difficult to show. Hence the media barons will, once again, get their way and politicians can then 'blame' us if it turns out bad.

Weak leadership I'm afraid.

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Quickbeam

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'We didn't pay enough attention in 1975'?

I think that that's true of the electorate after any election when the votes have been counted and we start to get the actions put into place.

The difference being that nearly 40 years on, there seems to be quite a majority that don't consider that we have what we thought we were getting, including the PM (as was referenced by himself in his speech).

So like the cooling off period that we're allowed on contracts signed on the door step, and the recovery of PPI premiums that we thought were the right thing at the time, and nearly 40 years of dissatisfaction with a service that we're not generally happy with, and with another generation of adults now in place since 1975 that resent inheritance we have given them, I think that we're now entitled to demand a thorough review of the entire EU machine's purpose for the 21st century.

And if that falls on deaf ears, we should be given the option to leave. It's clear from the PM's speech that he wants that EU wide review for the benefit of all EU nations.

It's not just Britain that's dissatisfied, I have a sister near Milan and a cousin in Rome, both for more than 30 years and with families raised, and they report that they think just the same of Brussels as we do.

So when the Brussels bureaucrats tell us that they know best, just who is it that is agreeing with them?

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namtas

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FE You asked

What are you basing your decisions on,

Unlike yourself I haven't made a decision yet, however at present my gut reaction which I believe is the feeling of many is concerns of where this EU is destined to take us if we allow it to role on. We are no now simply talking common market but of a federal Europe.

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flycatcher1

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I am pro Europe but the EU is changing all the time and many people, in many countries, appear to dislike being ruled, in nearly every way by Brussels. I think that the whole organisation needs looking at particularly the finances.

Cameron may have made his Referendum for the wrong reasons but it has made people think which must be a good thing.

If the EU looks like becoming a federal state because of the adoption of the Euro Common Currency I for one will vote OUT. I just hope that I live long enough to have my say.

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flycatcher1

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fm. Your erudition does you credit but you know what I mean

Thinking that the grass is always greener elsewhere is a trap for young players but this does not mean that efforts should be made to improve a situation.

I invest in shares- carefully- but I will have nothing to do with firms whose finances are uncertain. The EU finances are in a mess and need sorting. It is not a Company that any sensible investor would consider.

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lotvic

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Unless the Government produce a 'pros and cons' fact sheet I do not see how any member of the public can make an informed decision.

The uninformed whim of the masses is not a good way to decide In/Out.

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Legolas

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I was nineteen in 1974 and to be honest can't remember if I voted or not to stay in the EEC but it seemed to me that a community of countries that had free trade between them could only be a good thing, there was no hint at that time or certainly not to me of the EEC becoming the EU with a parliament in Brussels and having power over the parliaments of constituent countries, in fact before it was the EEC I seem to remember it being the Common Market, free trade a good thing, a Common Market a good thing, a parliament in Brussels meddling in out affairs not for me. Having said all that I would be wary about leaving the EU but as Cameron has said (never thought I would agree with a Tory) we should try and renegotiate our membership and maybe have a look at what we mean by a European Union.

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Flak999

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With regard to the comments and quotes from Hansard, I'm sure Ted Heath knew exactly what he was doing when speaking about european unity, politicians are quite adept at meaning one thing, saying another and doing something totally different! That's why in most peoples opinions they rank on an equivalent level to war criminals or sex offenders. (I speak tongue in cheek, but you get what I mean I'm sure?)

When we were taken into the common market and had the referendum I was sixteen, I couldn't vote. I could not have cared less about politics I was more interested in girls and having a good time. Now that I am fifty five (this year) I care very much about politics and how decisions made a generation ago affect my life and the lives of my children. No doubt as some may already have guessed I am a patriot and am very much of the opinion that "it's my country right or wrong."

I don't agree with many of the policies emanating from europe, particularly with regard to unrestricted immigration, which coupled with the Common agricultural policy, the gravy train of european commissioners, the black hole in the accounts of the union which cannot be signed off by accountants, the endemic corruption, the euro and just about everything else that the union stands for, not to mention the european court of human rights (I know, it's totally seperate from the union)

So all in all I don't much care if Cameron negotiates some powers back from Brussels.

I want out!

I am sure that the German chancellor sits in the Chancellery in Berlin pondering how one of her predecessors so nearly achieved by force of arms what she is set to achieve by economic and political means and realises that the dream of the thirties, of German hegemony over Europe and the thousand year Reich is actually within her grasp!

One people, one empire, one leader!

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Forum Editor

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Flak999

Look at two countires - Germany and Britain. Consider where they both were in 1945, and consider where they both are now, in economic terms.

Germany has the largest economy in Europe, and the fourth largest in the world. Britain has the third largest in Europe, and the sixth largest in the world.

By anyone's standards the German economic recovery since 1945 has been nothing short of astonishing, and it hasn't happened by luck. The German Chancellor doesn't need to dream of dominance - in an economic sense she already has it, and it happened because instead of sitting around wondering how little work they could do for the maximum amount of money the German people rolled up their sleeves and got on with it.

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Quickbeam

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What Flak999's post does demonstrate well, it what I said about the new generation of dissatisfied adults, post '75 referendum, needing to have an input as to where we go in this new century with the EU.

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Flak999

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Forum Editor

Look at two countires - Germany and Britain. Consider where they both were in 1945, and consider where they both are now, in economic terms.

I agree, we were the victors in 1945 but the war bankrupted us, whilst the Germans although nominally the losers benefited hugely from the Marshall plan and european reconstruction from the US. That is what contributed hugely to the German economic miracle. Along with, I will agree the German work ethic.

In many ways I admire the Germans, their single minded approach to whatever they turn their hands to, be it building Volkswagen cars or world domination they devote themselves to it heart and soul.

I just don't want to be part of the fourth Reich that's all!

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