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EU In/Out? Is a referendum the best way?


spider9
Resolved

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I'd always thought we were a Parliamentary Democracy, and, as such, we elect paid representatives to take difficult decisions on our behalf.

Membership of Europe is a difficult , complicated topic, and most people (including myself) would be hard pushed to appreciate all the pros and cons - so the populace will now be bombarded by media propaganda aimed at the lowest common denominator, I suspect.

Loads of 'crazy' EU stories will emerge and be fed to the Great British public, with 'good' EU stories being more difficult to show. Hence the media barons will, once again, get their way and politicians can then 'blame' us if it turns out bad.

Weak leadership I'm afraid.

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Quickbeam

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Am I right in feeling that a lot of the get out by tomorrow afternoon's, would reconsider their position by 2017, if we go a considerable way to addressing our EU hates as outlined in the PM's speech?

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Flak999

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fourm member

It is not for me to persuade people

Perhaps that's because you can't? As for the 1975 pamphlet I commend the "WILL PARLIAMENT LOSE ITS POWER? section to your attention. Perhaps you will tell me how much of that is true today? Particulary this paragraph:

Remember: All the other countries in the Market today enjoy, like us, democratically elected Governments answerable to their own Parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would."

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Flak999

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Quickbeam

As I have said before I am not against mutually beneficial trading arrangements. But as far as I am concerned political union is a red line for me.

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fourm member

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Flak999

'Perhaps that's because you can't?'

I am not a miracle worker. That's why I recognise that nothing I say will convince someone whose views are deeply entrenched and based on an unwillingness to examine evidence rather than rely on prejudice.

Just how do you think there can be 'mutually beneficial trading arrangements' if the UK is outside the EU?

Do you really think the French Prime Minister will say 'We have decided to buy X from the UK because that means there will be fewer jobs for EU workers?'

It is a valid argument to say you want out of the EU regardless of the consequences.

It is a valid, though highly speculative, argument to say that we can reposition our trading arrangements so as not to suffer from leaving the EU.

What is not valid is to suggest that we could walk away from the EU and still operate on exactly the same basis economically.

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Woolwell

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The 1975 pamphlet contains "Will Parliament lose its power?". It mentions the Council of Ministers not the European Parliament. It carefully skirts around a political federation and specifically states that all Parliaments will retain their independence. It constantly mentions Market treaties. I infer from that political union was not part of the debate.

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Woolwell

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fourm member - India is the second biggest investor in UK and we have significant investments in India and there are bilateral trade agreements. You can have agreements with nations without joining a political federation.

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Flak999

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fourm member

I recognise that nothing I say will convince someone whose views are deeply entrenched and based on an unwillingness to examine evidence rather than rely on prejudice.

Ok, I'll go with that, so now show me the evidence! I am open to persuasion.

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Aitchbee

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Latest betting on EU Membership Referendum:-

Result of EU Membership Referendum:-

In favour of staying in EU ...4/6

In favour of leaving EU ... 11/10

*Applies to the result of the first nationwide UK referendum on leaving the EU entirely. Must take place by the end of May 2020. [Bets void after 24th March 2013.]*

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spuds

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fourm member

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Woolwell

Thank you for demonstrating my point that some people will cling to their beliefs no matter what is put before them.

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