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EU In/Out? Is a referendum the best way?


spider9
Resolved

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I'd always thought we were a Parliamentary Democracy, and, as such, we elect paid representatives to take difficult decisions on our behalf.

Membership of Europe is a difficult , complicated topic, and most people (including myself) would be hard pushed to appreciate all the pros and cons - so the populace will now be bombarded by media propaganda aimed at the lowest common denominator, I suspect.

Loads of 'crazy' EU stories will emerge and be fed to the Great British public, with 'good' EU stories being more difficult to show. Hence the media barons will, once again, get their way and politicians can then 'blame' us if it turns out bad.

Weak leadership I'm afraid.

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Forum Editor

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You don't live in London do you!

i do, and have done so for the past 40 years. When I first came to live and work in London it struck me as a big, bustling, impersonal kind of place; a huge city which swallowed you up, and - if you wanted it that way - left you to live a fairly anonymous existence. It was then a multi-racial city, as it has been for centuries, and racism was widespread.

Large numbers of Caribbean immigrants had entered the country in the 1950's,and that continued into the '60s - these people made a big contribution to the rebuilding of the post-war London economy.

Nothing much has changed, to be honest, except the immigrant population has increased. London, like New York, is a multi-racial city and no mistake. That it (largely) works is a tribute to the honest, hard-working people of all nationalities who just get on with the process of making a living. In a shrinking world we had all better get used to the fact that there will be immigration and all that goes with it.

Bleating on about the good old days makes me laugh - they were never as good as some people like to think. Give me modern multiculturalism any day. I love the feeling of vibrancy that London has, and I certainly wouldn't want to see it change.

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Flak999

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Forum Editor

Although we both live in London FE we live on the outskirts, leafy Elstree and Radlet along with Ruislip and Harefield don't I think have the same, shall we say "problems" of the inner city?

Would you choose to send your children to school where English is a second language and 99% of the class where non white?

Because I wouldn't!

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Forum Editor

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Flak999

I have lived in various parts of London, the inner city included, and once had an office in the heart of Brixton. The people there were as friendly as in any leafy suburb.

My children went to a school with large numbers of Japanese children, children from the Philipines, Hong Kong, and Nigeria. At university they made many friends, including students from overseas, and some of those friendships have lasted into adulthood.

Life is what you make it,and saying that you wouldn't want to send your child to a school that had lots of children from ethnic minorities means that you're making decisions for them that will simply perpetuate racism in society. You're an anachronism, but fortunately your views are held by a minority. A vociferous minority, but that doesn't matter - the minority will not prevail in the long term.

Anyway, what have non-white children got to do with an EU referendum?

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fourm member

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Flak999

For what it's worth I was born in the East End and, apart from 8 years in Zambia lived and worked in London or the suburbs until I was 51. My grandfather was an Irish 'navvie' so I expect he was viewed with suspicion by the 'natives' when he arrived in London.

But that is irrelevant to being able to see the foolishness in that woman saying that, when she moved from Staffordshire she found London to be an unfriendly place and today it is an unfriendly place.

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Flak999

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Forum Editor

I may be an anachronism, but I am not alone in my views. Whether I'm in the minority is debatable, I guess we shall have to wait until we get to vote to see how the land lies.

fourm member

I respect your opinion, but you must understand that life for some of the older indigenous population in some areas has changed beyond all recognition. They don't like it and feel threatened by it. whether that is a real or imagined fear, it is a fear nonetheless.

They feel ignored and marginalised and yes, some feel like foreigners in their own country. It is easy for you and people like you to call them racists. It is the "get out of jail free" card that all Guardianistas use to stifle any debate on immigration.

But I digress, let us keep the thread on track. One of the main reasons I wish to leave the EU is to wrest control of our own borders back from Brussels.

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fourm member

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Flak999

I've been accused, before, of being the mouthpiece for Tory Central Office and now, it seems, I'm a Guardianista.

Calling someone a racist is not about stifling debate about immigration. If the only difference between the London this woman moved to and London now is that the skin colour of the unfriendly people has changed then the only basis of complaining now is racism.

But, as you say, let's keep the thread on track.

'to wrest control of our own borders back from Brussels.'

What does that mean? The UK has always maintained its own border controls. That's why you can't travel to Calais to do some booze shopping without a passport but you can cross from France to Belgium at 70 mph.

The decisions on immigration that you object to so much have all been made by British politicians.

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Forum Editor

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Flak999

It is the "get out of jail free" card that all Guardianistas use to stifle any debate on immigration.

Immigration? There was I, thinking you said **"Would you choose to send your children to school where English is a second language and 99% of the class where non white? Because I wouldn't!"**

That's not a debating point about immigration, it's about race. You're falling over your own prejudices.

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john bunyan

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"But I digress, let us keep the thread on track. One of the main reasons I wish to leave the EU is to wrest control of our own borders back from Brussels"

Whether on agrees or not with Flack 99 (I do not), as will be seen from the Citizenship quiz, the two biggest ethnic minority groups are from India and Pakistan, followed by the Caribbean. These were allowed in by British Governments - the EU had no part in it.Ie we have never had control of our borders in the sense that Flack99 means.

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fourm member

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john bunyan

Precisely. From the tone of the debate in the media, it seems some people think that, if we leave the EU, the PM will be round for a cuppa everyday to check that planned policies are acceptable.

It's all completely illogical. The same people calling for us to give up the ECHR so we can 'get tough on criminals' are exasperated that UK politicians deny the 'public will' by refusing to allow capital punishment.

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oresome

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That's not a debating point about immigration, it's about race

I think it's more about the practicalities of your child receiving a good education.

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