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EU In/Out? Is a referendum the best way?


spider9
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I'd always thought we were a Parliamentary Democracy, and, as such, we elect paid representatives to take difficult decisions on our behalf.

Membership of Europe is a difficult , complicated topic, and most people (including myself) would be hard pushed to appreciate all the pros and cons - so the populace will now be bombarded by media propaganda aimed at the lowest common denominator, I suspect.

Loads of 'crazy' EU stories will emerge and be fed to the Great British public, with 'good' EU stories being more difficult to show. Hence the media barons will, once again, get their way and politicians can then 'blame' us if it turns out bad.

Weak leadership I'm afraid.

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Quickbeam

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Not to be confused with God.forbid

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morddwyd

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Flak999

"I am not prepared to give up, I don't think it's to late."

You are, of course, entitled to your view, but if you think that you, and/or Cameron, and/or any combination of British people have any chance of changing a strong Europe, led by a Franco-German alliance dominated by Germany, with the UK out on the periphery, which is the current reality, then your view is through particularly rose tinted spectacles, especially if you think such a change can be made by opting out and letting them get on with it!

As for your comments on the Fourth Reich, your xenophobia has given you a different view of recent history to me.

There was never any intention of the UK being part of Hitler's Greater Europe, or even fighting a protracted war. He fully expected Britain to sue for peace, and those expectations would have been fully realised had the 1930s appeasers not been replaced by Churchill.

It was only after Churchill's "Fight them on the beaches" speech that he realised that he would, expectedly, have to eliminate the British.

That has now been achieved, so far as Europe is concerned. Cameron's referendum, no matter which way it goes, will simply put the finishing touches.

Once again, for the record, I was once a full federalist, hoping to see "Ode to Joy" played at an Olympics medal ceremony.

However, having an open mind I changed it when presented with the evidence.

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Aitchbee

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I still finish of my day, when I'm tucked up in bed, by listening to the 'National Anthem' on BBC Radio4 ... at 1am ... just before the World Service 'kicks in' ... but a bit of / or burst of LED Zeppelin would make it even better!

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Aitchbee

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...That's The Way, Tangerine or Misty Mountain Hop would do.

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Flak999

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morddwyd

Strangely, I'm not really to sure which side of the argument you are supporting! I'm not interested in changing Europe for the better or for the worse. As I said in an earlier post, I want out! Altogether, I don't want unelected European technocrats interfering in the sovereign Government of the UK.

I don't want their immigrants! I don't want their common agricultural policy, nor their commissioners or their courts. I want the Government that I elect to be able to make our own laws without some European veto, I don't want their Euro or to pay to support the basket case members who should never have been allowed to join in the first place!

Your interpretation of the appeasement of the 1930's is different to mine, Hitler knew he would have to defeat us in these islands or lose the war! He didn't and he lost. I am damned if I will let another German chancellor do what her predecessor failed to do, but by political means!

If that's xenophobia, so be it!

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morddwyd

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But can't you see, or accept, it's done? Britain has little influence in Europe, either inside or outside the EU.

For the record I want out. I am all for an integrated Europe, but not in its present form. But make no mistake, if we come out the present economic difficulties will seem like boom time.

I am not sure of your own position. You also want out, but want seem to want to see the end of the EU as well.

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Quickbeam

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"Britain has little influence in Europe, either inside or outside the EU."

Which is why my first post supporting out said, "The simple reasoning being that we can't be any worse off on our own..."

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flycatcher1

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morddwyd Your point about Britain having little influence in, or out, of the EU.

Is that why they seem to be very keen on us staying in ? Maybe it is the money or is it that we seem to be the only Nation that is prepared to fight for others.

Look at Mali - the French are there because it was French and, I suppose, they maintain excessive interest there, we are there because the French asked us for help and like good Europeans we provided it.

The Germans, Italians, Spanish,the Nordic countries and all the others are nowhere to be seen. If it is necessary to support the Government in Mali why are only two European countries involved ?

I would prefer us to stay in the EU but if it is going to be a Federal State with all that implies I want out.

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fourm member

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flycatcher1

'why are only two European countries involved'

Because this isn't an EU matter. It is one country, France, asking another country, UK, to fill in the gaps in its capabilities.

There's a deafening silence from all those who banged on about how defence cuts would leave us incapable of doing anything at the realisation that we are the go to country when someone else hasn't got the resources.

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Flak999

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morddwyd

For the record I want out.

And glad I am to hear it! My position to make it completely clear is for a total withdrawal of the UK from the EU, a total and complete repatriation of all powers from Brussels to London. At the same time a withdrawal from the European convention on human rights, so that we are not bound by any more of that courts ridiculous decisions.

I am totally ambivalent as to whether the EU continues without us, that is for the remaining members to decide. All of this is pie in the sky I can hear you say, but the referendum when it comes is the first step. When the groundswell of public opinion is known and the decision to leave is made, all else will flow from that.

There is plenty of time in the intervening years for the crisis within the EU to deepen, at the moment the union is only being held together by smoke and mirrors. Greece should already have gone, who next Spain, Portugal? Or perhaps Italy or Ireland?

When the restrictions on Romania and Bulgaria are removed in 2014 and the next destitute hoard of benefit tourists descend on our shores, taking scarce resources that we can ill afford to give the outcry against the EU will only grow louder.

We can afford to play the waiting game because by waiting the crisis will only deepen ensuring a resounding vote to leave the union!

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