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Cover-up by the Vatican?
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Posted September 29, 2012 at 4:11PM
The trial of the Pope's butler started today - he's the man who is accused of stealing confidential documents from the Pope's desk and leaking the contents to a journalist who subsequently wrote a book about corruption in the Vatican.
Paolo Gabriele has admitted that he knew taking the documents was wrong but he felt the Holy Spirit was inspiring him to shed light on the problems he saw around him.
So far, so good, but the Vatican judges have refused to admit any evidence from Paolo's defence lawyers, saying they will rely solely on evidence from Vatican Police and the Vatican prosecutor. It's about as blatant a case of denying a person the right to defend himself as I've seen yet. It's a classic cover-up of course - the Vatican is terrified that details of corrupt practices amongst senior Vatican figures will be made public.
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Posted September 30, 2012 at 9:44PM
Not sure how one small piece in Wikipedia, which is by no means an authoritative source anyway, is relevant in the history of an organization which has exercised total control over the lives, and deaths, of a considerable percentage of the civilized world's population, for a considerable percentage of recorded history.
Corruption and abuse are endemic in the church and have been going on for millennia, and will continue.
In fact, it's probably cleaner now that it has ever been.
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Posted September 30, 2012 at 11:53PM
Rather than foaming at the mouth about common or garden thieves, and making sweeping statements about people spouting nonsense, don't you think it might be an idea if you got your facts right?
I haven't seen anyone claim that this man is a defender of free speech, and in any case that has nothing whatever to do with the case. What the Vatican judges are doing is denying him the opportunity to present evidence in his defence. They are doing that because they want to suppress information - information that might reveal the existence and extent of corruption amongst Vatican officials. Questions from both the prosecuting and defence lawyers must be submitted to the panel of judges so they can put them to the accused and to any witnesses. This is being done to ensure that nothing that might embarrass the Vatican can be mentioned in front of the reporters in the court.
In a civilised State everyone has the right to a fair trial, and this man is being denied that right. He's being denied it because the Catholic church wants to cover up corrupt practices at a high level. It's the worst kind of oppressive behaviour, and the Pope should be ashamed of himself for allowing it to happen.
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Posted October 1, 2012 at 12:35AM
the Pope should be ashamed of himself for allowing it to happen.
Should we expect any different from a former member of the Hitler youth?
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Posted October 1, 2012 at 4:40AM
Foaming at the mouth? Forum Editor, I would suggest that you and several other contributors were the ones foaming at the mouth in your delight at getting an opportunity to have a wide ranging bash at the catholic church. You start an ill informed piece on papal court procedure and that's taken as carte blanche for certain posters to get some catholic bashing in. Dear God we had the bloody Crusades getting mentioned, then of course the child abuse scandal (what that has to do with this is unclear) then of course the usual dullard comments of the Pope being a Nazi. A very poorly controlled thread.
The sheer hypocrisy on this thread is staggering. You talk as though only the Vatican has state secrets? You live in one of the more secretive countries in the world that has more CCTV cameras pointed at its people than any other country. We live in a country that aided and abetted rendition, Guantanamo Bay, internment, we were even responsible for the introduction of concentration camps and then we have the annual Lewes ritual where a tourist attraction is made out of a celebration of burning catholics.
Maybe we should get our own house in order first.
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Posted October 1, 2012 at 9:04AM
Please point out where my post was ill-informed.
Please point out where I have expressed "delight at getting an opportunity to have a wide ranging bash at the catholic church"
My comments about the Catholic church have been specific - not wide ranging in the least. I did not talk as though the Vatican is the only State to have secrets - you invented that.
I suggest that you calm down somewhat and engage with my argument, rather than wildly ranting about what you have decided I said. Please don't invent things to fit your blind prejudice, and then accuse me of saying them.
I wasn't talking about other States, I was talking specifically about the Vatican, and its deliberate attempt to deny a man justice in order to suppress information that may be damaging to it. I was pointing out the breathtaking hypocrisy involved, and making a point about the shameful behaviour of a Pontiff who looks the other way, rather than setting an example to millions of faithful Catholics. He is a disgrace in that respect, and I invite you to argue otherwise - please post a justification if you want to defend his position, otherwise I'll thank you to think again before accusing me of hypocrisy.
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Posted October 1, 2012 at 9:19AM
This reminds me of the story of Emanuela Orlandi, the 15-year-old daughter of a Vatican employee who vanished in June 1983.
Her kidnap in Rome by unidentified men has been the subject of scrutiny for three decades, with allegations that it was connected to blackmail and banking scandals involving the Holy See.
One theory is that the girl's father, a Vatican employee, had stumbled on documents that connected the Vatican's bank with organised crime in Rome and that she was seized in an attempt to silence him.
There has been speculation that Emanuela was murdered and her remains hidden in the tomb alongside the body of a gangster who was shot dead by rival gangsters in central Rome in 1990 and his body interred in a crypt in the Basilica of Sant'Apollinare. It has always been seen as unusual that a known mafioso should have been buried in a church in which popes and cardinals are interred.
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Posted October 1, 2012 at 9:35AM
It's fair to point out that there are numerous theories about Emanuela's disappearance, including one that Muslim terrorists abducted her, and another that Vatican police took her for sex parties, and subsequently killed her.
The case is unsolved, and it looks like staying that way.
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Posted October 1, 2012 at 10:29AM
Apologies for not responding to your post about editing - I hadn't spotted it earlier.
You can't edit posts after they appear in the forums - that's correct. It has been a deliberate policy of ours since the day the forum started, and we decided upon it for a couple of reasons.
One was that in a forum like Speakers Corner discussions often become quite heated, and can move along more or less in real time. That means that a post which was subsequently edited might already have attracted a response, and after the edit the response would a) appear in the sequence before the edited post, and b) even if that didn't happen the response might appear odd if it addressed a point that had been edited out. The whole thing would lead to all kinds of disputes and petty squabbles if people started denying they had previously said something, and the forum flow would be disrupted.
We also considered an edit feature as something that would add yet another layer of complexity for the server and the database to deal with, and this became an increasing concern as the number of page requests rose. It might work OK with a few hundred people on a site, but when there are 5,000 people, all making different page requests at once there might be a potential for glitches.
We've been running for almost 12 years like that, and although people have often asked for an edit facility we have - for the reasons I've stated - resisted the idea. I don't think it is a really major failing - most people either correct a mistake by posting an explanation, leave things as they are, or email me, asking me to do the edit. It's not as if our postings are of earth-shattering importance - everyone accepts the odd typo or spelling error.
I can edit my own posts because I have an edit tool - I need it because I sometimes remove a flagrant libel, or delete an obscenity or other inappropriate comment. Any implication (and they have been made) that I might use the facility to further my own interests in some way is ridiculous - I wouldn't dream of doing it, and in any case it would be spotted within minutes.
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Posted October 1, 2012 at 7:16PM
I have read in various books, that the then Pope during the chaos and the aftermath of WW2, was influential in aiding and abetting leading Nazi's escape to such places as Argentina. It all seems to fit in with this latest scandal. (A leopard never changes it's spots).
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Posted October 2, 2012 at 12:50AM
I'm happy to post in this forum with no edit facilities as another forum I visit has got an edit button,and in reading the threads there I often see a later post containing a direct quote from earlier postings which have been editted for legal/defamatory/obcenity reasons by the forum admins and I find myself scratching my head in puzzlement wondering what on earth the quoted post was implying.The forum admins have now started adding editted by admins rather than simply deleting the post which helps somewhat,but not in every case.
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