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New decision about carriers


carver
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I'm still trying to work out why the latest decision to scrap cat and cap aircraft carriers has been ordered and the decision to go back to ski jump carriers is now the thing to go for.

We have scrapped any aircraft we had capable of using this type of carrier and the only ones available are American F35B.

And from what I have read these are not very good in combat against some of the planes produced by Russia.

We are supposed to in in a save money time and the ones in power seem to think that millions wasted is pocket money.

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morddwyd

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"Referring to people as 'cretins' is offensive- please don't do it.2

According to the COD cretin means stupid, which admittedly is offensive, but I didn't think such a mild term offended against normal posting rules (unless I referred directly to another member).

It was, and is, a genuinely held view, I thought that people who made the decision were stupid. However, I withdraw the remark and apologise for any offence caused.

"The 'amateurs' you refer to are the chiefs of all three services, and the Chief of the defence staff, all of whom have supported the decision. "

Like I said, nobody gets promoted for saying no, not since de Gaulle anyway.

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morddwyd

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Oops, posted too soon.

The amateurs I referred to are those who took the decision, not their advisers.

They were all politicians, and that is their profession.

Hammond did not enter Parliament u til 97, less tha twenty years ago.

He was appointed to Defence barely sis months ago, having previously served in Transport.

I stand by my belief, once again genuinely held, that he is an amateur.

Compare him, for instance, with Menzies Campbell, defence spokesman for his party for many years, and a one time member of the Defence Select Committee.

Hammond never shadowed Defence, or served any Defence interests until he was placed in charge.

I served under people like him , (Fred Mulley, Portillo, Rifkind and the like) for a long time, time servers all.

If they're not amateurs they gave a damned good impression of it when they were in office.

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Forum Editor

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Morddwyd

You seem to be under the impression that decisions about military hardware are based purely on the views of the politicians involved, which of course isn't the case.

Military and defence department experts advise on ships and aircraft, but quite obviously there will be budgetary considerations, too. You and I don't have access to the information that goes into the decision making process,so neither of us can make truly informed judgements about what should or should not have been done.

For my part I'm encouraged by the news that all three service chiefs approved the decision.

Cretin comes originally from the French word crétin, used to describe someone who was mentally retarded. It's now regarded as an offensive term.

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flycatcher1

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The points about politicians and Defence Chiefs are well made.

In previous times MPs had a wide range of careers before entering the House now it is rare to find anyone who has done, what a lot of us, would call a worthwhile job.

Tom King was the Defence Secretary during Iraq Mk One and, on the basis of his National Service in the Army, thought that he was an expert in warfare. I was told that he became involved in every minute detail of the operation. The Brass must have loved him!

It is strange that with all the problems we have had with defence over the years I cannot remember any Defence Chiefs resigning.

During a major Service function an Air Chief Marshal said that he was only interested in one thing. A voice from the back of the marquee called out " Your Bl**dy Pension". Pandemonium ensued but Public knowledge of the affair was kept quiet by means of a "D Notice".

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Forum Editor

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The current Commander-in-Chief Fleet, Chief of Staff to Navy Command Headquarters, and Chief Naval Warfare Officer is Admiral George Michael Zambellas DSC. Earlier in his career he atudied Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering. He worked in the aerospace industry for a time before joining the Royal Navy in 1980, qualifying as a helicopter pilot in 1982 and clocking up 1500 deck landings and 2000 flying hours in three tours. He served as the Flight Commander in HMS Rothesay (Wasp HAS Mk 1) before converting to the Lynx HAS Mk 3.

I imagine he knows a thing or two about Naval aircraft operations.

The current Royal Air Force Chief of the Air Staff is Air Chief Marshal Stephen Dalton. He graduated with a degree in Aeronautical Engineering from Bath University.

He flew Jaguars on three tours in the tactical reconnaissance and ground attack roles in the UK and Germany. During these tours he flew on exercises in Europe, the USA and Canada. On completion of the Advanced Staff Course, Air Marshal Dalton commanded No 13 Squadron flying the Tornado GR1A, during which he was deployed on Operation JURAL flying reconnaissance missions over Iraq; for part of the period he was the Commander British Forces JURAL for Op SOUTHERN WATCH in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

I imagine he knows a thing or two about combat aircraft.

The army Chief of the General Staff, Sir Peter Wall, was commissioned into the Royal Engineers in 1974 before reading engineering at Cambridge University. He served in Belize, Rhodesia, Germany and Hong Kong, and has commanded 9 Parachute Squadron Royal Engineers, and 32 Engineer Regiment, including spending time in Bosnia. After becoming chief of staff of 5 Airborne Brigade, he was promoted in 1999 to brigadier, commanding 24 Airmobile Brigade and overseeing its merger into 16 Air Assault Brigade.

He probably knows a bit about aircraft - he certainly knows a lot about Apache attack helicopters.

The three of them have approved the government's recent decision, and I personally doubt that in doing so they were all motivated by the 'not promoted by saying 'no' policy.

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Woolwell

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I know George Zambellas from his Wasp flying days. I can confirm that he is not a "yes" man.

However I still think that it is the wrong decision but I was never an Admiral!

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carver

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Well very impressive, all these people who know all about aircraft but it seems that every body must have forgot to ask their opinion, even if we had carried on with the catch and trap the F35C are too heavy to use the French carrier which was one of the governments arguments about changing things.

So now we are 2 years down the road, back to the original idea of STOVL jumpjet and it's only cost about 5 billion wasted on nothing.

Sorry FE but stupid and cretin do seem to be apt statements when referring to this sort of behaviour,

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morddwyd

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"It's now regarded as an offensive term."

And I withdrew it and apologised.

"neither of us can make truly informed judgements about what should or should not have been done. "

That applies to most of the subjects and the posters on this forum.

However, we can express an opinion, I hope.

It's called "lively and thought-provoking debate ".

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flycatcher1

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FE It has been suggested that Gordon Brown ordered the two carriers to provide employment in the ship building industry - guess where?

Are we suggesting that all the heads of the the three services over the years agreed with the order, the design and the type of aircraft to be employed. I think not.

Senior officers are sometimes completely out of touch with the real world. One year a large hangar was packed with V Force aircrew and harangued by senior officers about the political need to support the Deterrent. The only cheer came when it was suggested that only fools like Bertrand Russell were anti nuclear why, he even supported Free Love!

THE CAS,the CinC Bomber and the AOC 1 Group were shouted down on the occasion mentioned in my previous post. They tried to treat the Vulcan Force like schoolboys and there was a violent reaction. The Dinner was abandoned but the following party was pretty good.

Lord Trenchard started the RAF but he was not always correct. He managed to snuff the RNAS and he thought that the Bomber would always get through. Bad decision on both counts. Met him when 7 Squadron stuffed 617 in a Bombing Competition.

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flycatcher1

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One more thing. I have a friend who retired as a very Senior Officer and I asked him what powers Service Officers had. Very little he stated all major decisions were made by their Political Masters and their supporting Civil Servants.

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