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People of the world,rise up!


Forum Editor
Resolved

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"On October 15th, we will meet on the streets to initiate the global change we want. We will peacefully demonstrate, talk and organize until we make it happen."

Can anyone tell me how these people are going to 'make it happen', and what 'it' is?

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Forum Editor

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badgery

"but obviously, on that point, both you and FE will naturally have to agree to differ with myself."

I do wish you would learn one of the basic rules of debate, which is not to make assumptions about how another participant will react. Why would I 'naturally' have to agree with anyone to differ from your views? I'm quite capable of differing on my own account, thank you.

On the point you raise - that a lot of people think that injustices are real - I agree with you. The problem is, there's no way of knowing for sure just how many, and what 'the injustices' are. You say that these people support the 'overall principles being expounded', but that's just the point, isn't it? There are no principles being expounded, other than that there should be - in your own words - "just more fairness in the overall distribution".

What does that mean, exactly - can you put into words how we can arrive at a system that has 'more fairness' in the overall distribution (I presume you mean 'of wealth')?

I suspect that we're arriving at the point where you'll realise that what you're really supporting here is the idea of doing away with a system whereby people are able to create wealth on their own account, and espousing the student-bar dream of an egalitarian society, where everyone has the same amount of money. I call it a dream, because of course that's what it is, has always been, and will always be. It makes no allowance for human nature, as you and the protesters will realise if you study the effects of previous attempts to run a country along similar lines.

I'm all for fairness, as long as I'm the one deciding what's fair,and therein,as they say,lies the rub.

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Forum Editor

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pabby

Nobody is ganging up on anyone. Just because more than one person disagrees with what someone has said in a discussion it doesn't mean that there's some dark conspiracy at work. It simply means that perhaps more than one person has spotted what he or she perceives as faults in another argument.

As for twisting interpretations - I invite you to point me to a single instance of my doing it.

Never seen the FE say I was wrong. It hasn't fizzled out.

if by 'it' you mean the demonstration, it has been running for a couple of weeks, or thereabouts. You'll recall that I said 'time will tell that this will simply fizzle out'. I stand by that prediction - once the media tire of reporting it, and the weather turns against the protesters they'll melt away. There may be a few die-hards who linger longer, but they'll soon find some other demonstration to join.

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badgery

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FE

I had not meant to upset you with the remark about agreeing to differ, and apologise if my including you and fourm member together was inapt - but your views, in the main, appeared to be very similar on this and many other matters.

To the substantive point, I didn't mean wealth (although it's now your turn to have made assumptions in the debate!! Sorry couldn't resist that). Fairness to me means society being, for example, 'all in it together' - when it is perfectly obviously we're not.

One can 'feel' something is wrong without necessarily having all the answers to immediately rectify it - but it provides an excellent way of belittling someone elses view - "if you don't have the solution to the problem then don't dare say it's needing changed"!

From where I am, the present system benefits me because I'm not at the 'bottom', have secure income and live more than comfortably - so why would I want it to change? (I suspect both you and fourm member may be in similar positions). But I see much anger developing at the lower levels of our society, and it will, one day, have consequences, I'm afraid, unless something is done. Maybe this protest is a start?

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Forum Editor

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badgery

Agreeing with someone - once, or repeatedly - means simply that, two people have rather similar views on lots of subjects. In a forum it can lead to all kinds of slightly paranoid reactions, not the least of which is that the people doing the agreeing are one and the same. Many such inferences have been drawn over the years - I've been accused of having all kinds of alter-egos.

In truth - here's a surprise - I, too agree with much of your last post, except the " it will, one day, have consequences, I'm afraid, unless something is done" part. There has always been a degree of dissatisfaction in some levels (not always the same levels)of society, and of course in a democratic system 'something is done' by the people when enough of them want change. Governments react to public opinion or they die.

The current feeling of dissatisfaction is no different - it's just that we all know about everything because of our media-rich world, and so things gather speed at a faster rate than in the past.

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badgery

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FE

May I first of all say that I have never suggested you have any alter ego, or that there is anything wrong with having the same views as someone else on multiple subjects. Others maybe did - but not me! I would have prefered not to be tarred with that brush.

I'm glad we have now found some measure of agreement, and would remind you that your final sentence was exactly the point I made in my very first post on this thread:-

"It is a recipe for disaster, and the instant communications now help to publicise this." Oct 15th at 8-30pm.

And you say "it's just that we all know about everything because of our media-rich world," which was my earlier point about the more knowledgeable populace - for which I was roundly slapped down, I seem to remember, by fourm member - with the comment "Now that's funny"!

Ah well...wonder if he'll now chastise you in the same way?

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Admiral Allstar

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I have barely read/watched etc about this protest and its sister protests around the globe. Whilst I understand that people are protesting against the present system it seems to be primarily aimed at the financial sector (unless I have missed something). I have also watched with some mirth the reaction of the CoE from the initial panic to later jumping on the bandwagon of the protestors.

What I still cant fathom is what the aim is. I know it is to change the system but to what?? It has been mentioned that greater equality of wealth is one aim, but unless you legislate that everyone earns the same AND spends the same then this will never happen.

There are numerous problems with this - human nature being one, whilst practical problems like setting the amount everyone can earn is another. The biggest problem though, is that the rest of the world will need to do the same as (rightly or wrongly) this nation depends on the rest of the world.

I include spending the same as if some people dont spend their wealth then they automatically become wealthier than others. Thus the present situation arises again.

These are just my thoughts on the subject as until we have something concrete to understand what the point is then we are all at a loss and can talk in circles to the end of time.

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Woolwell

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There are reports that human waste has had to be cleared up from inside St Pauls Waste on carpet. If this true then I would hope that culprits are found. But I suppose that is unlikely. It is however time that this camp moved on.

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badgery

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Woolwell

From your link :-

Spokesman for the Cathedral said "“We are aware of these kinds of problems and we are raising them in our daily talks with camp members, who we are not presuming at all are responsible.”

Doesn't sound as if they are allocating blame specifically to the protesters, then?

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spuds

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Reading through some of the posts, it would appear that there are more negatives than positives to the actions these people are taking?.

Pity that the Emily Pankhirst's of this world demonstrated for democracy and possibly rights that they believed in. Certain sections of the community might still not have a vote?.

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