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Do you think the police cuts should be reconsidered?


bremner

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Today on the World at One Kenneth Clarke reiterated the goverments case for cutting police budgets.

He said that policing was in major need of a root and branch reform, with which I generally agree. He added that they wanted police officers out of offices and on the streets, meaning that overall number of officer could be cut without reducing the number of frontline police. Great, but he then said the jobs being done by the police officers in offices could then be done by civilian staff.

My local force is having to cut 700 police officers AND 500 civilian posts.

Something therefore does not add up.

Why can't the government simply be honest. They need to balance the books, policing must take its pain like every public service but please please don't say there will be no noticeable reduction in frontline officers.

The emperor has no clothes.

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john 52

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Fourm member

If you would care to read through the posts the subject matter was changed during the thread and

I quote

Clearly, if frontline services do suffer the electorate will dispense its punishment at the appropriate time. That seems to me to be a pretty good incentive for the government to make sure that what it says will happen, happens.

I just pointed out that it did not deter the coalition trying make wholesale changes to how the NHS operates despite the outcry and concerns to the public and that election promises will not be kept . You say you have restricted yourself to the very narrow point well maybe that is your problem try to look at the bigger picture not the ones that just fit in with political ideology .

Also please note I did say all political parties are capable of this.

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bremner

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Surrey is an interesting case.

It was one of only two forces that by 2009 had more civilians than police officers.

Between 2000-2009, when money was readily available, it increased it civilian staff by 154% and its police officers by 2% whereas virtually every other force increased its police officers by a much greater number.

To make their £23 million of savings they will close some 40 police stations, reduced senior officer numbers by 45, although no ACPO rank and made many many civilians redundant.

This will allow them to increase their constables by 200 over the next two years.

It is because of Surreys previous administrations over investment in civilian posts that means it is now able to discard those posts in favour of police officers posts. Other forces used their extra money to recruit more officers and can therefore only meet the financial cuts by now reducing those posts.

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Forum Editor

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John 52

This thread isn't about the NHS, or any other aspect of government policy - it's specifically about cuts to police services. Trying to expand the discussion into other areas for personal idealogical reasons isn't going to be tolerated I'm afraid.

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flycatcher1

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morddwyd I agree with most of what you say but your point about the RAFVR is not quite right. Before WW2 we had the RAF and the Royal Auxilary Air Force, the gifted amateurs, the equivalent of the TA. As the war started recruitment to the RAF was stopped and all wartime officers were RAF Volunteer Reserve.

I was made aware of this when a Boss of mine was about to be commissioned in the RAF when he had a motor-cycle accident. The delay meant that he ended up in the RAFVR and had to apply for a RAF Commission after the war. He flew Blenheim Fighters (!) during the Battle of Britain, ended up as a 23 year old Wing Commander and later set up the Sultan of Muscat's Air Force.

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bremner

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This has become like one of those puzzles

How do you get from Police Cuts to the Sultan of Muscats Air Force in five moves? :o)

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morddwyd

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"I have no idea what your original post comparing Special Constables to the TA was about."

It's about the question, prompted by a comment made by another poster, who I quoted, as to whether we are heading for an increasingly part time amateur police force similar to our increasingly part time amateur army

Those part timers are making the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan (as are their families), just as the RAFVR did in 1940, and like the “Wavy Navy” did in the Battle of the Atlantic and, like them, the Specials are an essential part of the force they make up.

It's a question, not a comparison.

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bremner

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I too think the use of the word 'amateur' in respect of the Special Constabulary is inappropriate.

Dictionary.com defines an amateur as "a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons"

I believe Specials and the TA are not done for pleasure but for professional reasons.

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spuds

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bremner

With reference to your comment "Between 2000-2009, when money was readily available". The way I understand is that money for civilians like Police Community Support Officer's was provided from the Central Government purse, and in fact cost very little or nothing to the police force employing these people, for at least a three year 'trial' period. Forensics and Scene of Crime Officer's also had special provisions and funding provided for the increase of numbers.

Over the past twelve months Scene of Crime Officer's have suffered quite a bit, due to already 'cut-back' procedures. Forensics are now on the way out from an in-house situation, to that of contracted-out on a much bigger and complete scale. In respect of this situation, there are fears within the service, that delays will increase in providing evidence. Possibly to the point that some evidence will no longer be collected, based on cost alone!.

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bremner

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spuds

I a happy to be corrected but I believe, and am supported by this report Home Office Reportthat the police have a single budget for officers and staff and it is up to Chief Constables to set their establishment levels as they see fit.

In the link read Section 5 Resources where it says

"We asked police representatives why the 40% increase in funding between 1997 and 2007 had only resulted in an 11% increase in police officers numbers over that same period. Bob Jones, Chair of the Association of Police Authorities (APA), told us that the investment had been deployed to recruit civilian and other staff as well as more police officers.

PCSO's are funded totally separately and are not effected by the announced cuts - although their funding is for review in 2013

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john 52

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FE

Point taken

* but must add your comment *If the government says there will be no cuts in frontline services, and is subsequently shown to have reneged on that promise, the electorate will have its revenge, come election day.

All I was pointing out that the thought of a public backlash seemed to have little concern to the Tory party with regards the NHS .Mrs Thatcher and the poll tax seems to be good example of political leaders ignoring or worrying about the consequence of there policies .

FE comment: One irrelevant line of text has been removed from this post)

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