//some 3rd party need geo

How could I redesign this page?

  Pesala 08:40 21 Jun 03
Locked

This page (click here) seems to be one of the most popular on my website, but it is slow to navigate.

I am happy with the use of frames in general and I don't wish to change the top frame, which offers easy sideways navigation to books by other authors.

The left frame could be changed to include the vertical navigation bar that I was obliged to put in the main frame or it could be got rid of altogether.

I would like to find a better way for the user to browse the individual verses, of which there are 286.

I use Net Objects Fusion, which generates the HTML code for me, so don't even try to explain in code. The easiest thing might be to point me to a web page that does something similar, and leave me to figure out how to implement it.

This is one idea that might be workable: click here

  Sir Radfordin? 09:29 21 Jun 03

For a start on your site the Alphabet list only goes down as far as D on my PC. The left frame doesn't have scroll bars.

The simplest way to fix this would be to open the page up in notepad (I know you don't want to do any HTML but this is really simple!)

Make sure you are opening the framelayout page (wisdom.html) and you will see the following apears twice SCROLLING="no" change this to SCROLLING="auto" and that will make sure scroll bars apear when they are needed.

click here for an example of something similar to what you are trying to do. I think you need to use tags to jump around the document. These are like hyperlinks but in the same document.

Just realised if you click one of the letters in the left menu you jump down the alphabet - doesn't seem to be a way back up again!

Ask if you want any more help with how to code the document tags, its fairly easy to do, but sometimes simpler using real htlm. WYSIWYG editors are great for 90% of the work, but sometimes its easier to use the real thing!

  Pesala 09:56 21 Jun 03

There is not much room for scrollbars, which is why I put the links from D to E, etc. NOF has an option to include them, exclude them, or include only if needed (autoscroll), there is no need to edit the HTML code. Changes must be implemented in the source file, otherwise I have to edit the code every time I regenerate my site.

If you follow any of the Alphabetical links, the main frame will go to that verse, and the Index will revert to A. A scrollbar would help, but space is tight. That's why I'm looking for a new design.

  Sir Radfordin? 11:21 21 Jun 03

You seem to have some HTML errors in some of this. If I go to click here then I get the list with scoll bars. Thats fine. However if I then click a letter say - D I get this click here which is less good. If you then click here wich is the link for 130bodywisdom.html you end up with A back at the top. If however you click A (and I doubt this link will work) you get this click here

Have never used Net Fusion Objects so can't really comment on it, but if your site is an example of the code it produces then its shocking! Thats not a reflection on you at all.

If its free software you are after then download Netscape and it comes with its own WYSIWYG editor (Netscape Composer) thats very easy to use.

  Pesala 12:02 21 Jun 03

The link from A to target B is missing, so the main frame doesn't load. I only spotted this myself today. I have fixed it.

The tops of the big letters disappears, which as you say, is not so good, but it is a cosmetic rather than serious problem.

I tried the left frame with the scroll bars, which is a bit easier to use, but not signficantly better.

I am playing with a few ideas. Watch this space, and I see if I come up with anything better.

Those who are used to html coding always complain about how untidy the code produced by wysiwyg editors, but if it works who cares?

I used to use WordPerfect, which has a reveal codes feature. When other people gave me their documents produced in WordPerfect they were full of redundant codes like [Bold on][Bold off] with no text in between, because most WP users don't use the reveal codes feature.

I am sure there are wysiwyg editors that produce better code than NOF 2.02, which is what I'm using, but I'm not going to change or redo 104 pages from scratch in another web package, not even a free one, just because the code is untidy.

  Sir Radfordin 12:15 21 Jun 03

Would generally agree that if it works then fine what does it matter. Problem is that poor code tends to only work on PC's similar to those the designer was using.

Browsers that are less forgiving than IE is in its HTML guessing can make some sites look awful because people haven't stuck to the HTML standard.

Also, those people who use software designed to help them overcome visual impariments have a nightmare with badly code in sites.

Just something to think about...!

  Pesala 12:36 21 Jun 03

I added the scroll bars to the left frame, and also added a right frame to hold the vertical navigation bar. This works fine on my local drive, but though I uploaded all four html files to the server, the scroll bars don't appear in the left frame, and the right frame is missing. This is wisdom.html, which links the frames together:

<HTML>
<HEAD>
</HEAD>
<FRAMESET COLS="224,*">

<FRAME NAME="left" SRC="./left_wisdom.html" SCROLLING="auto" MARGINWIDTH="2" MARGINHEIGHT="2" BORDER="5" NORESIZE>
<FRAMESET ROWS="130,*">

<FRAME NAME="header" SRC="./header_wisdom.html" SCROLLING="no" MARGINWIDTH="2" MARGINHEIGHT="2" BORDER="5" NORESIZE>
<FRAMESET COLS="*,96">

<FRAME NAME="body" SRC="./body_wisdom.html" SCROLLING="auto" MARGINWIDTH="2" MARGINHEIGHT="2">

<FRAME NAME="right" SRC="./right_wisdom.html" SCROLLING="no" MARGINWIDTH="2" MARGINHEIGHT="2" BORDER="5" NORESIZE>

</FRAMESET>
</FRAMESET>
</FRAMESET>
<BODY>
</BODY>
</HTML>

  Pesala 12:52 21 Jun 03

I am using Opera. Switching from "Identify as Opera" to "Identify as MSIE" and back again solved the problem. Don't ask me why, but it worked fine.

  Pesala 20:53 21 Jun 03

but I'm still not satisfied. Just too much clutter, and too complex. click here

There must be a better way of doing this.

  Forum Editor 01:03 22 Jun 03

the option of putting 'jump to' hyperlinks in a table.

You could configure mouseover text that described each link, and the click would perform the jump to in the list of verses.

I'm bound to say that I'm not a fan of frames sites at all - I think they look clunky and outdated.

  Pesala 08:27 22 Jun 03

The frame on the right has gone, but I have put a home button in the top frame.

The alphabetical headings have gone, but I have retained the list of verse titles. I have added some links to the main frame so that users can read a page at a time. I looked at using a table like click here, but decided it was far too much work.

I am happier with the end result (click here), but I expect it could still be improved further, perhaps by splitting the long page of verses into ten or twenty separate pages with just a screenful of verses on each.

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