Frontpage 2002 and Firefox problems

  Peter De 16:53 24 Mar 06

I have noticed that in Firefox my menus at the bottom of each page go off the screen. I have designed the site with Frontpage 2002 (not knowing much about HTML) and used tables to format. Website address is click here Any advice gratefully received.

  JWJ 21:01 24 Mar 06

I haven't got a definite solution for you but, as a FrontPage user, I do know that FP inserts some non-standard elements into the code it produces. <nobr> for example. These non-standard elements are dealt with differently by the various browsers, some more succesfully than others. The first thing to try is inserting a DocType as the first line of your code. You should do this anyway ... it's bad practice not to. Put <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> into your first line. It may help FF determine what to do with the non-standard stuff, it may not.

To really get it fixed you need to ensure all of your code is 'valid'. You can check this at W3C and here are your results.
click here

Don't be phased by them but gradually deal with them one at a time and you page will benefit greatly.

  Peter De 15:49 26 Mar 06

Thanks for the suggestions. I tried using W3C as JWJ recommended which threw up 33 errors initialy for the index page alone. Installing the first piece of code brought the errors down to 31, but when I followed the next suggestion, it kept showing exactly the same errors. This is daunting, given the number of pages, and the fact I don't know HTML (which is why I chose Frontpage)- and correcting things as recommended does not have the desired effect. Any other suggestions? 16:03 26 Mar 06

it is NOF, and I suspect many other editors. Quite simply, it boils down to the fact that Firefox gives no leeway, and expects 100% strict coding.

It is a pain in the butt, I know. After trying to get over many problems on my own sites in Firefox I now just include a message on the home page telling visitors to use IE, and hope that they do.

  JWJ 16:28 26 Mar 06

With IE7 imminent, and with it's commitment to the same W3C standards, we have to assume that it will behave much more like FF than IE6 does. If it does then everyone who has ignored FF issues will have a problem. If it doesn't then we can leave our head in the proverbial sand and hope our visitors like our sites enough to keep using IE.

Peter De, in my opinion you haven't even tried. Consider all the 'ALT' errors. Open a page in FP, right click on each image and insert a little text in the 'Alternative Text' field. That's a whole chunk of your errors dealt with in one go. Hard? Nope.

Some of the errors (like <nobr>) are going to be harder admittedly, but if you chose one type of error at a time and come back here and ask how to fix it, over time you'll get there.

  Peter De 17:06 26 Mar 06

Thanks again JWJ. I understand what you are saying, but surely if IE7 has new standards then it is up to Microsoft to update Frontpage to deal with that - and not expect people like myself to become techies all of a sudden. Whatever happened to usability?

  JWJ 17:45 26 Mar 06

No doubt they will update FP but whether or not they are able to make it deal with every possible scenario web builders will throw at it is very debatable. It is obviously your call and you will do things the way you feel most comfortable with. You may choose to always rely on non-standard menu bars that don't display properly in some browsers, as you are doing now, but if you do you need to appreciate that the solutions exist in your knowledge over and above FP.

I had the exact same problem as you. My horizontal bar behaving differently in FF. I no longer use a FP menu bar and made my own that looks identical. It exists on every page of my site and if I make one change to my menu it becomes changed right across the site instantly. I chose to fix my problems not live with them just because that's what Microsoft want. You could do the same but it's up to you.

  JWJ 17:53 26 Mar 06

OK ... trying to be more constructive, try this. I see that your menu bar is in the same cell as the rest of your central content. Try putting it in its own cell and give that cell a fixed width. Don't know if it will make a difference but worth a try. :-)
Let us know.

  Peter De 10:08 27 Mar 06

Thanks - I tried that, but to no effect unforunately - so I'm considering reducing or splitting the menus instead.

  JWJ 10:47 27 Mar 06

Before you do that, if you're up for another suggestion, try removing the <nobr> tags from the code. You won't be able to get at it using FP (I don't think). Open your page using Notepad, find the long line near the bottom of the page that contains your menu and go through carefully deleting every <nobr> and </nobr>. Work in pairs so that you avoid leaving an odd one behind. From what I've managed to find out <nobr> is a non-standard way of saying "No Breaks". That is probably what is forcing your menu to stay on one line.

Warning ... I don't know that this will work but even if it does you may find that the next time you alter your menu FP will stick all the <nobr>'s back in again.

  JWJ 17:02 27 Mar 06

Peter, forget that suggestion. I have set up a simple test page (click here) which, if you view it in both IE and FF, clearly demonstrates your problem. Having emulated the situation I then removed the <nobr>'s and it didn't solve anything.

Splitting your menu may be the only sensible route to take but if I have any other suggestions I will come back.

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