Flat table borders in Netscape.

presently the homepage of my site has a little label saying 'this site is best viewed in IE' which I appreciate most of you hate to see, and I can't say I'm happy about it myself, but the problem is that I have used some table borders on the links page click here that look how I want them to in IE but look dreadful in Netscape/Mozilla. So my question is how do I convince netscape to show the borders flat? (I'm thining something like "noshade" for horizontal rules) or can some-one suggest a different method altogether that would still give me a good looking table.

(ps all other comments/praise/derision on the site as a whole will be gratefully recieved, not much has changed since I last asked but there's a bit more content)
Thanks Horiz

  PurplePenny 00:20 08 May 04

It looks different again in Opera and of the three interpretations I like Mozilla's the best! :-) Oh trust me ......

Penny (being no help whatsoever).

Firstly let me apologise for not getting back to you yesterday, I had to make the long journey south to Inverness for an exam, (turned out to be a farce, the whole assembly language portion that I had been fretting about for a week had been scrapped, the rest was a walkover)

Anyway thanks for your comments it's good to know that you dont find it that bad looking, I get worried about it because the graphical design of the site is in many ways more mportant than the content when you consider the target audience of that particular page.

perhaps that page wasnt the best example, the effect on this page click here is probably worse.

The non-valid code is something I've been aware of but I'll admit to being slow to deal with it, I let Dreamweaver just do its own thing behind the scenes for the most part with just a little bit of the code hand tweaked and as long as it displays OK I dont worry too much for now(naughty I know)

'78 seconds!' now that is worrying, (and a little hard to believe) I knew things had slowed down after I added a preloading roll-over but 78 seconds does seem overly long, I've thought of splitting the links onto two pages but I'm worried that visitors will not go on to the second page and it would inevitably upset people if they were relegated to page 2.I'd be interested to know what kind of load times you are getting on the other pages.

my thoughts on accessibility would take another thread (or maybe a 10 page white paper, I do waffle on a bit)but I'm glad you brought it up, so far I have concentrated on the look of the thing but as my readership is growing every day I better look into it.

So thanks for your input folks,

Still if anyone has an answer to the question I'd be most grateful.

Horiz [ click here ]

  Taran 10:55 09 May 04

Your page(s) take seconds to load for me, although that is on broadband.

There's a nice little program called WebSlower click here that will load your site or page at whatever speed connection you choose from its list of options. This allows you to quickly check how 56k compares to ISDN and ADSL or cable.

Now, the table problem(s). This is where we get complicated and also where, you'll be unimpressed to learn, there are no quick and easy fixes.

Your troubles are caused by two main things:

1. Dreaweaver, despite its claims to the contrary, produces IE targetted pages and loosely takes other browsers into account when you ask it to.

2. Browsers of all types are pretty horrific in their complete inability to correctly iterpret certain things, but some are worse than others...

NetScape, until recently, did not support table borders, table backgrounds, table ID, onmouseover, onmouseout events and all kinds of other things, most of which are prevalent in your pages. Opera and other browsers (including IE) all have their own problems and when you sort things out for one of them you invariably introduce problems for others.

NetScape also does not like to apply any styles set in CSS to HTML tables. To explain, if you had this in your CSS:

body {...}

then NetScpae would totally ignore the global settings detailed in the body CSS for tables. This is in spite of the fact that tables fall within the body HTML, so you have to start tweaking straight out of the blocks by using this:

body, TD, TH, TR {...} otherwise NetScape goes bonkers.

Opera, bless it, until very recently (within the last couple of months) used to totally ignore the last table row on your page. It would automatically apply the same dimensional and formatting settings to the bottom row that were specified in the second from bottom. This obviously caused havoc and for a browser that is supposedly "standards compliant" and makes a big issue out of this, it was pretty awful, to say the least. People were having to include a dummy last row just to stop it from mangling their pages.

Now, before I go off on one even more, I have a question for you:

How are you on CSS concepts and implementation ?

The reason I ask is that I can see from your source that you've applied some CSS, but that your actual page body code is quite "busy" and has some potentially very reall issues:


<td bgcolor="#F6BB0C" onMouseOver="this.style.background ='#F27619'" onMouseOut="this.style.background='#F6BB0C'"><div align="left"><span class="style3"....

What's all that about ?

There are CSS styles in there that are independent of the main CSS style list at the top of the page.

Dreamweaver can do a lot for you in terms of point and click but if you point and click too much it allows you to introduce loads of potentially conflicting code that just doesn't need to be there.

Let me know how you feel about CSS and we'll see if we can sort things out a little, but even CSS has certain problems in some areas with some browsers - guess which ones ?

Your site designs (past and present) are visually superb, but underneath it all there are issues to be dealt with in the source code.

I'll pop back later to see if you have responded, but I don'tknow of any quick fixes since earlier versions of all browsers that are still in use today will completely mangle certain table attributes.

There's an interesting demonstration of this click here

Hi Taran thanks for responding,
To be honest I think you can see for yourself that my knowledge of CSS is all too chronically limited and truth is that yes I was kind of hoping for a quick fix.

there are fundamental flaws in the way I work, recycling too much of my code and not starting afresh after messing things up hence leaving lots of rubbish lying around.
That and I have been teaching myself by sniffing out tutorials and customising bits then leveraging them into my pages (hence the <td bgcolor="#F6BB0C" onMouseOver="this.style.background ='#F27619'" onMouseOut etc. which is just an effort to make an "interesting" mouseover effect that is completely unneccesary)without really understanding how it all works.

To be honest I think what I need to do is start again from a different stand point, (get the engine running before I apply the go faster stripes).

So thanks for your kind words and good advice, I am most grateful for your offer of help but I dont want to drag you into something that could get a bit out of control as I can see that to implement CSS properly I will need to do a lot of work right from the beginning.


"Current connection speed 33333 bps.

And BT have just told us we'll be in the 7.5% of the area to never get ADSL."

We could be neighbours! 28.8 is a good day here,

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